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Thread: Detect and alert on OUTBOUND filtering?

  1. #1
    Frisco Guest

    Detect and alert on OUTBOUND filtering?

    In article <mq6v41pg2pvmdgjiiso8shg1g5352gu2he@news.speakeasy .net>, Jay T.
    Blocksom says...
    > <http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?scoring=d&q=Blocksom+"software+firewall"
    > &btnG=Search>
    >
    > Do read the whole thread(s). (And WRT to the most recent one in particular,
    > give Google at least a few hours to "catch up" with my latest article.)
    >


    [thread moved to alt.privacy.spyware from comp.mail.pegasus-mail.misc]

    Summation, to save everyone all the reading time: A software firewall is a
    tool. It's one tool. It is ONLY one tool. It is useful for what it is
    useful for, and nothing more. The same is true with hardware/firmware
    firewalls, anti-virus scanners, spyware trappers, encryptors and the whole
    lot. Each does something that the others cannot do. Each is useful and
    serves a purpose. To expect one tool to do it all is like having one
    hammer at home, but not having any screwdrivers, wrenches, pry-bars, saws,
    planers, chisels or... For security, it is not good enough to wait until
    you identify a need to get a tool. Once you've identified the need, it is
    too late. You must have all the tools at once, install them, configure
    them, monitor them, and react intelligently to what they tell you is going
    on. "Intelligently" is the operative word. "Install it and forget it,"
    while probably in line with most people's attention spans, isn't going to
    work. Save your money and your time and your disc space if you're not
    going to get involved with your own security.

    Jay,

    Thanks for the thread leads! Very interesting discussions (even if some of
    the contributors happen to be defending their own products' features and
    have a reason for a biased view).

    Yeah, I think we're in agreement, at least as far as I understand your
    point about software firewalls vs. outboard hardware, firmware or "roll
    your own on a cheap PC" firewall.

    I also enjoyed your term (assuming it was coined by you) "nagging nanny."
    I think I'll adopt if for my own conversations in the office, if you don't
    mind.

    But I also think, after reading the threads (Hoo, boy! They're LONG!),
    that either the others are missing your point, or perhaps you're missing
    theirs. Like one of the threads requested: "define adequate." I get the
    impression that two different points are being debated, but done as if it
    is only one point. It may be a choice of words that contributes to this,
    so I'll try state my position clearly. If you disagree, well, we disagree,
    and I can sleep knowing there are differing opinions.

    An outboard firewall (to use your term) is necessary. So is a NAT router
    that offers IP address translation. Both can block unsolicted inbound
    packet requests, and also protect from machine addresses being published
    and subjecting them to outside attack. They can't, BTW, protect a home
    user from the EFFECTS of DoS; packets coming down the line from the ISP
    will eat all home-based bandwidth, even if the modem/router/firewall stops
    them cold at that point. No available bandwidth is no available bandwidth,
    even if the protected computer isn't bogged down with examining the
    incoming packets and disposing of them.

    The outboard solution is highly more configurable than most home-priced
    routers (and much cheaper than enteprise-level firmware boxes), being able
    to do things like examine traffic frequencies and nature (one example: if
    it sees a gazillion 64k packets blasting out port 80 to the same IP
    address, it can shut down access to port 80 until the Zombie attack is
    finished - and alert you that you have a Zombie on your machine). Among
    other reasons, this is why I have one. I got a used PC for $75, and other
    than the electricity and cabling costs, that's all I paid for it. It's an
    old pentium, 333mHz, but it runs linux and its sole job is a firewall.
    It's far more than adequate to the task.

    Where a software firewall (running on the same machine as it is
    protecting) shines is a different matter. It's the "nagging nanny" feature
    that is highly desirable, here. Example:

    Suppose you download a program from a web site. Let's be a little more
    "I'm not that dumb" and say it's an UPDATE to a program you've been
    running for years; a patch, perhaps. Something you trust, and you trust
    the vendor. Unknown to the vendor, their development machines have been
    infected with a trojan designed to scan for things that look like account
    numbers, open port 80 outbound, and transmit what it finds to a
    predetermined list of addresses.

    Now, the vendor tests for function before making the patch available for
    download. They scan for viruses (and let's assume the scanner failed to
    detect the trojan already in their packaged code). They post it, you
    download it and install it. The patch works great! No problems.
    Unfortunately, so does the trojan, and none of the protection methods
    against INCOMING data have stopped it from arriving, being installed and
    executing.

    Randomly through the day, the trojan, having been turned loose in your
    system by you installing it (by accident, mind you), silently opens port
    80 and sends a short packet out of your machine, containing private data.
    To circumvent traffic analysis, it waits about 2 or 3 minutes (random)
    between packets. Then it resumes looking into data files, a little at a
    time so as not to make you wonder why your disc read head is thrashing,
    until it finds new information. The process repeats.

    A router and an outboard firewall are as useless in this situation as a
    software firewall is in combating unsolicited attacks from the outside. To
    the firmware firewalls, this looks like a typical web page request,
    perhaps using an http header and your private info imbedded in the data
    segment. They've no reason to stop it, based on the port, the outbound
    initiated request, and the frequency of the packets. The data packets do
    not necessarily contain identification as to what program created it, nor
    whether a user clicked a button to initiate the packet, nor how long the
    sending program has been running on the computer. It's just a data packet,
    like all others going to any web server in the world. (Enter, again, my
    earlier lament of not having a low-level data packet scanner to pause the
    packet, alert the user about private info going out, and asking whether to
    let it go or kill the packet).

    Presuming that patched program has NO business accessing the internet (at
    least it didn't use to until you patched it), the nagging nanny is your
    first line of defense, and possibly your only chance of knowing BEFORE it
    is too late that something is wrong. In this case, a good (and I don't
    know how to define 'good,' sorry) software firewall should be able to:

    1. Detect that a new program is accessing the internet, or a previously
    approved and signed program has changed in its code signature or the type
    of transmission it wants to conduct. That is, the program itself or any
    one (or more) if its subcomponent modules. At that point, it is not
    allowed to access any port until you [re]authorize it (nagging nanny) and
    a [new] digital signature is taken.

    2. It should provide stateful inspection, shutting down the access rights
    if the program should do anything other than use the ports it was allowed
    to use, and only initiate outbound requests (as opposed to listening for
    any unsolicted incoming requests). Granted, the firmware firewalls can
    protect against the latter, but the fact that a program is acting as a
    server (daemon or service) should alert you to a HUGE problem on your
    machine. Where yesterday you had nothing listening to port 80, and today
    you do, you should remove the cable from your machine immediately!

    This is where software firewalls have their forte, and the other firewall
    forms are, well, let's just say the keep honest software honest, in this
    very particular respect.

    I believe I understand you to acknowledge this, and that your main thrust
    of your security threads was something along the lines of "Don't be fooled
    into thinking that you're protected if all you have is a software
    firewall, even if you run 18 of them." And that's a sentiment with which I
    enthusiastically agree! Some vendors will have the neophyte believing this
    claim. Even if the vendor is honest and says their product is PART of a
    tool set, there are still the home users who "read something on some web
    blog somewhere, and the guy seemed to sound like he knew what he was
    talking about, so he must be correct. Hey, he says he works for Intel (or
    Network Solutions, or xyz Security Corp, or...), so he MUST be an
    authority on EVERYTHING, right?" Perhaps. When was his article dated?
    February, you say? 1998? Hmm...

    And while we're at it, unless one actually USES the logs and THINKS before
    OKing unknown outbound access (the nagging nanny, again), then there's no
    reason to run a software firewall. By mindlessly approving everything and
    never looking at access logs, you may as well save yourself some CPU
    cycles, some interrupt backlogging, some RAM and the hassles of dealing
    with the nagging nanny - delete the software firewall. It's useless unless
    users THINK and educate themselves, even if just a little.

    Too many users, alas, don't think and they don't educate themselves; "I
    bought it and installed it and now I don't have to deal with the topic any
    longer." No, they don't. Not unless they're interested in securing their
    private information, anyway. In that case, why not save yourself some time
    and forget installing a 3rd party product, free or not; just enable the
    Windows XP Firewall (assuming you have XP) and leave it at that. The
    protection level is just as effective...

    Cheers!
    Frisco

  2. #2
    Jay T. Blocksom Guest

    Re: Detect and alert on OUTBOUND filtering?

    On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:54:01 -0500, in <alt.privacy.spyware>, Frisco
    <buscame@theinter.net> wrote:
    >

    [snip]
    >
    > [thread moved to alt.privacy.spyware from comp.mail.pegasus-mail.misc]
    >

    [snip]

    As you can see, I found it, eventually; but it was almost by "dumb luck". For
    future reference: When you want to "move a thread" from one newsgroup to
    another (which is literally impossible, BTW; but I know what you meant),
    cross-post your f'up to both the original newsgroup and wherever you're
    attempting to "move" it to, and set your "Followup-to: header to the latter.
    It's generally considered polite to also note this at the top of your article
    (which you did, sort'a; but since the article was not cross-posted to its
    original newsgroup, that "road sign" was basically a moot point).

    OK, with that out of the way...

    > Jay,
    >
    > Thanks for the thread leads! Very interesting discussions (even if some of
    > the contributors happen to be defending their own products' features and
    > have a reason for a biased view).
    >
    > Yeah, I think we're in agreement, at least as far as I understand your
    > point about software firewalls vs. outboard hardware, firmware or "roll
    > your own on a cheap PC" firewall.
    >

    [snip]

    Pretty much so, yes. I have a few "quibbles", which I'll address below; but
    you've got the gist of it.

    > I also enjoyed your term (assuming it was coined by you) "nagging nanny."
    > I think I'll adopt if for my own conversations in the office, if you don't
    > mind.
    >

    [snip]

    Have at it, with my compliments. ;-)

    > An outboard firewall (to use your term) is necessary. So is a NAT router
    > that offers IP address translation.

    [snip]

    At least in smaller installation environments, these are usually the same
    piece of gear. The functions also overlap to some degree. All of which is to
    say, the line between "firewall" and "router" is a somewhat fuzzy one (and
    growing more fuzzy as product development/marketing advances).

    > Both can block unsolicted inbound
    > packet requests, and also protect from machine addresses being published
    > and subjecting them to outside attack. They can't, BTW, protect a home
    > user from the EFFECTS of DoS; packets coming down the line from the ISP
    > will eat all home-based bandwidth, even if the modem/router/firewall stops
    > them cold at that point. No available bandwidth is no available bandwidth,
    > even if the protected computer isn't bogged down with examining the
    > incoming packets and disposing of them.
    >

    [snip]

    All correct.

    > The outboard solution is highly more configurable than most home-priced
    > routers (and much cheaper than enteprise-level firmware boxes),

    [snip]

    Well... In many/most cases, those "home-priced routers" *are* the outboard
    solution. I don't mean to imply that a $40 router appliance is (or can be)
    the end-all and be-all of external firewalls. But the better ones still offer
    probably 90% of the effectiveness of their multi-hundred/thousand-dollar
    equivalents, as long as they're used in the environments and under the
    conditions for which they're designed. And besides, it's what *most*
    SOHO-class users wind up with, if they use any "external solution" at all.

    > I got a used PC for $75, and other
    > than the electricity and cabling costs, that's all I paid for it. It's an
    > old pentium, 333mHz, but it runs linux and its sole job is a firewall.
    > It's far more than adequate to the task.
    >

    [snip]

    Unless this was a fair while (say, 1-2 years) ago, you overpaid significantly.
    But beyond that, yes -- that is *the* preferable way to go. Just make sure
    you keep up-to-date on the patches (which is generally quite easy to do,
    depending in part on your specific setup).

    > Where a software firewall (running on the same machine as it is
    > protecting) shines is a different matter. It's the "nagging nanny" feature
    > that is highly desirable, here. Example:
    >

    [snip]

    That sure was one long and convoluted hypothetical example! Rather than go
    into most of it point-by-point, I'll simply grant your basic premise: Such
    "pseudo-firewalls" *can* (theoretically, anyway) provide some useful
    functionality, at least sometimes.

    But one problem is, what usefulness it may/does provide is not a "firewall"
    function at all; and the way these things are mis-labeled and mis-promoted,
    naive users are being led down the garden path with a false sense of security.
    To my mind, that is doing more harm than good, overall.

    There is also one specific point I do need to take issue with:

    > Presuming that patched program has NO business accessing the internet (at
    > least it didn't use to until you patched it), the nagging nanny is your
    > first line of defense, and possibly your only chance of knowing BEFORE it
    > is too late that something is wrong.

    [snip]

    Correct, *BUT*... This is a HUGE -- and probably unwarranted -- presumption.
    For example, at least most of the "nasties" that get dealt with here
    (<alt.privacy.spyware>) every day are parasites which in some way or another
    attach themselves to putatively "innocent" applications that routinely access
    the 'net (MSIE being *the* most obvious example). For your scenario to show
    the "software firewall" as *reliably* useful (via the "nagging nanny"
    function), all malware would have to somehow be magically limited to "new"
    stand-alone programs or "attachments" to existing non-net-using applications.

    It just doesn't work that way in the real world.

    > I believe I understand you to acknowledge this, and that your main thrust
    > of your security threads was something along the lines of "Don't be fooled
    > into thinking that you're protected if all you have is a software
    > firewall, even if you run 18 of them." And that's a sentiment with which I
    > enthusiastically agree! Some vendors will have the neophyte believing this
    > claim.

    [snip]

    Exactly.

    > Even if the vendor is honest and says their product is PART of a
    > tool set, there are still the home users who "read something on some web
    > blog somewhere, and the guy seemed to sound like he knew what he was
    > talking about, so he must be correct. Hey, he says he works for Intel (or
    > Network Solutions, or xyz Security Corp, or...), so he MUST be an
    > authority on EVERYTHING, right?"

    [snip]

    It's called "voodoo computing", or "the blind leading the blind", and it runs
    absolutely rampant wherever crowds of born-yesterday amateur wannabe "experts"
    gather -- like here, for example. <~>

    > And while we're at it, unless one actually USES the logs and THINKS before
    > OKing unknown outbound access (the nagging nanny, again), then there's no
    > reason to run a software firewall. By mindlessly approving everything and
    > never looking at access logs, you may as well save yourself some CPU
    > cycles, some interrupt backlogging, some RAM and the hassles of dealing
    > with the nagging nanny - delete the software firewall. It's useless unless
    > users THINK and educate themselves, even if just a little.
    >

    [snip]

    Agreed.

    > Too many users, alas, don't think and they don't educate themselves; "I
    > bought it and installed it and now I don't have to deal with the topic any
    > longer." No, they don't. Not unless they're interested in securing their
    > private information, anyway. In that case, why not save yourself some time
    > and forget installing a 3rd party product, free or not; just enable the
    > Windows XP Firewall (assuming you have XP) and leave it at that. The
    > protection level is just as effective...
    >

    [snip]

    Which is to say: near-zilch.

    > Cheers!
    > Frisco


    Have a good one. ;-)

    --

    Jay T. Blocksom
    --------------------------------
    Appropriate Technology, Inc.
    usenet02[at]appropriate-tech.net

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