Ping: David H Lipman

[~BD~]

FromTheRafters wrote:
> "~BD~"<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
> news:BNSdnTuM_ZLf313RnZ2dnUVZ8omdnZ2d@bt.com...
>> FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> "~BD~"<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
>>> news:7OKdnVAJtM3Rs13RnZ2dnUVZ8qmdnZ2d@bt.com...
>>
>> [....]
>>
>>>> You have now confused me, Dustin!
>>>>
>>>> Have you actually *removed* and replaced a BIOS chip around 100
>>>> times
>>>> as you stated - or simply flashed the chip to replace the data?
>>>
>>> I believe he meant exactly what he said.
>>>
>>> Some BIOS chips had to be removed and put in a jig (the eeprom burner
>>> Dustin mentioned) to reprogram them. Even some that were flashable by
>>> local software needed to be done this way because the computer with
>>> the
>>> corrupted BIOS code wouldn't boot and offer up a software platform to
>>> run the reflashing routine. The BIOS recovery jumper scenario was
>>> developed to get around this unfortunate situation - it holds enough
>>> non-flashable (permanent) BIOS routines to present the software
>>> environment needed to re-flash the chip 'in place' with the new BIOS
>>> image stored on a floppy.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>
>> Ah! Thanks for that info. FTR.
>>
>> When I flashed the BIOS that one time, I used a floppy disk/drive.
>> Many desktops/laptops nowadays don't have a floppy drive. How is BIOS
>> flashing carried out on such machines? TIA
>
> Dual BIOS?
>
> I don't know, because I no longer keep up with such things, but ISTR
> hearing of modern BIOSes having a rudimentary yet full functioning BIOS
> program in a non-flashable area of the same chip that has the EEPROM.
> Sorta like the "BIOS jumper" routine, except that it is a full BIOS
> program not just barely enough to reflash from a floppy. You set the
> jumper, reboot the machine, use this environment to get a BIOS upgrade
> image from the vendor, and reflash your EEPROM - then de-energize - set
> the jumper back - reboot.
>
>

Significant changes, eh?!!!

It seems as if you *are* keeping up with such things after all!

[~BD~]

FromTheRafters wrote:
> "~BD~"<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
> news:W4KdnUu_epw0CF3RnZ2dnUVZ7t6dnZ2d@bt.com...
>> Dustin wrote:
>
>>> Yes. I upgraded systems by installing a 3rd party vendor, replaced
>>> them
>>> due to bit rot (the eeprom burner would fail the chip).
>>
>> Understood.
>>
>> Thanks for explaining.
>
> Besides, they wear out if you flash them a lot. They can only suffer so
> many reflash cycles (I forget how many).
>
>

Thanks yet again!

On a similar tangent .......

Quote:

Memory wear
************
Another limitation is that flash memory has a finite number of
program-erase cycles (typically written as P/E cycles). Most
commercially available flash products are guaranteed to withstand around
100,000 P/E cycles, before the wear begins to deteriorate the integrity
of the storage.[7] Micron Technology and Sun Microsystems announced an
SLC flash memory chip rated for 1,000,000 P/E cycles on December 17,
2008.[8]
The guaranteed cycle count may apply only to block zero (as is the case
with TSOP NAND parts), or to all blocks (as in NOR). This effect is
partially offset in some chip firmware or file system drivers by
counting the writes and dynamically remapping blocks in order to spread
write operations between sectors; this technique is called wear
leveling. Another approach is to perform write verification and
remapping to spare sectors in case of write failure, a technique called
Bad Block Management (BBM). For portable consumer devices, these wearout
management techniques typically extend the life of the flash memory
beyond the life of the device itself, and some data loss may be
acceptable in these applications. For high reliability data storage,
however, it is not advisable to use flash memory that would have to go
through a large number of programming cycles. This limitation is
meaningless for 'read-only' applications such as thin clients and
routers, which are only programmed once or at most a few times during
their lifetimes.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory

[FromTheRafters]

"~BD~" <~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
news:efadndwHp9EovlzRnZ2dnUVZ8lmdnZ2d@bt.com...
> FromTheRafters wrote:
>> "~BD~"<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
>> news:XYmdnf0_ve0ozl3RnZ2dnUVZ7rqdnZ2d@bt.com...
>>> ~BD~ wrote:
>>>
>>> [....]
>>>
>>>> When I flashed the BIOS that one time, I used a floppy disk/drive.
>>>> Many
>>>> desktops/laptops nowadays don't have a floppy drive. How is BIOS
>>>> flashing carried out on such machines? TIA
>>>
>>> I've located the article to which I originally referred!
>>>
>>> Good information!
>>> http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1605
>>
>> "The BIOS is a set of instructions contained on special type of
>> volatile
>> memory chip built onto your motherboard."
>>
>> I think that that is wrong, this memory is non-volatile ROM (that's
>> the
>> whole point, no?). CMOS is volatile RAM. Later they state that
>> removing
>> the (CMOS) battery resets the BIOS (it resets the CMOS Setup data,
>> which
>> affects the BIOS program's execution, but it does *not* change
>> anything
>> in the BIOS program itself as it exists in the ROM) - that *other*
>> site
>> said something similarly wrong.
>>
>> Reading those articles, a novice would assume that a CMOS reset
>> actually
>> affects the BIOS program as it exists in ROM.
>>
>> The program in EEPROM will not change unless you "flash" it,
>> resetting
>> the CMOS does not "flash" the BIOS.
>
> All interesting information FTR. Thanks. I had absolutely no idea
> about this sort of thing until just a few years ago!
>
>
>> Do you know why they call it "flashing"?
>
>
> No - I do /not/ know why it's called 'flashing'.
>
> (Guessing - maybe high voltages were required 'once upon a time'?)

Once upon a time...

The "healing" or erasing needed to make it ready to accept new code was
done by ultraviolet light.

[...]

[~BD~]

FromTheRafters wrote:
> "~BD~"<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
> news:efadndwHp9EovlzRnZ2dnUVZ8lmdnZ2d@bt.com...
>> FromTheRafters wrote:
>>> "~BD~"<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
>>> news:XYmdnf0_ve0ozl3RnZ2dnUVZ7rqdnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>> ~BD~ wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [....]
>>>>
>>>>> When I flashed the BIOS that one time, I used a floppy disk/drive.
>>>>> Many
>>>>> desktops/laptops nowadays don't have a floppy drive. How is BIOS
>>>>> flashing carried out on such machines? TIA
>>>>
>>>> I've located the article to which I originally referred!
>>>>
>>>> Good information!
>>>> http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1605
>>>
>>> "The BIOS is a set of instructions contained on special type of
>>> volatile
>>> memory chip built onto your motherboard."
>>>
>>> I think that that is wrong, this memory is non-volatile ROM (that's
>>> the
>>> whole point, no?). CMOS is volatile RAM. Later they state that
>>> removing
>>> the (CMOS) battery resets the BIOS (it resets the CMOS Setup data,
>>> which
>>> affects the BIOS program's execution, but it does *not* change
>>> anything
>>> in the BIOS program itself as it exists in the ROM) - that *other*
>>> site
>>> said something similarly wrong.
>>>
>>> Reading those articles, a novice would assume that a CMOS reset
>>> actually
>>> affects the BIOS program as it exists in ROM.
>>>
>>> The program in EEPROM will not change unless you "flash" it,
>>> resetting
>>> the CMOS does not "flash" the BIOS.
>>
>> All interesting information FTR. Thanks. I had absolutely no idea
>> about this sort of thing until just a few years ago!
>>
>>
>>> Do you know why they call it "flashing"?
>>
>>
>> No - I do /not/ know why it's called 'flashing'.
>>
>> (Guessing - maybe high voltages were required 'once upon a time'?)
>
> Once upon a time...
>
> The "healing" or erasing needed to make it ready to accept new code was
> done by ultra-violet light.
>
> [...]

OK! Thanks for sharing!

Substantiated here:
http://vivekn.net/2010/06/07/flashin...i-motherboard/

Quote

"One more thing, the reason why the term ‘flashing the BIOS’ is used is
because the BIOS is on an EEPROM (Electrically Erasable Programmable
Read-Only Memory), and to erase its predecessor, EPROM (Erasable
Programmable Read-Only Memory) was erased by exposing it, or flashing,
to ultra-violet light."

[Dustin]

~BD~ <~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in
news:W4KdnUu_epw0CF3RnZ2dnUVZ7t6dnZ2d@bt.com:

> Dustin wrote:
>> ~BD~<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in
>> news:7OKdnVAJtM3Rs13RnZ2dnUVZ8qmdnZ2d@bt.com:
>>
>>> Dustin wrote:
>>>> ~BD~<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in
>>>> news:HrOdnXHocIGAoCLRnZ2dnUVZ7rqdnZ2d@bt.com:
>>>>
>>>>> Dustin wrote:
>>>>>> "~BD~"<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in
>>>>>> news:i9jli3$uc2$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nowadays, though, I'd probably simply replace either the
>>>>>>> motherboard or, more likely, the whole machine! ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The landfills appreciate ignorance like that. I don't, but they
>>>>>> do. They absolutely love it when people replace and throw away
>>>>>> rather than repair. It's understandable if the machine is
>>>>>> really old and/or beyond repair, but... Many times that's not
>>>>>> the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Out of general interest, Dustin .....
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you kept a mental note of how many times you have removed a
>>>>> BIOS chip from a motherboard and replaced it with a new one?
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't be able to provide you with an exact number, but I
>>>> don't think it would be any higher than.. 100 or so. It's not
>>>> that difficult of a process when your employer at the time had an
>>>> eeprom burner.<G>
>>>>
>>>> You don't have to replace the chip BD, it's the rewritable
>>>> software inside that's "bad".
>>>
>>> You have now confused me, Dustin!
>>
>> Why doesn't that surprise me. You are easily confused.
>
> Only when *you* do not understand the question being asked, Dustin!

I don't have any problems understanding you, BD. Spin on somebody else
who doesn't know of you.

>>> Have you actually *removed* and replaced a BIOS chip around 100
>>> times as you stated - or simply flashed the chip to replace the
>>> data?
>>
>> I have actually removed *several* BIOS chips and replaced them,
>> yes. I had to physically remove them to place them in the eeprom
>> burner. Once the eeprom burner reloaded them, I would put them back
>> into the mainboard I removed it from.
>
> That's rather different to "one hundred or so", isn't it?!!!

Not really. The procedure is the same. Have you even done one, ?

>> In other cases, a bios upgrade (this was
>> before you could just reflash it) required a 3rd party BIOS. One of
>> the most popular was mr bios. I installed hundreds of those things.
>
> OK - I'm not challenging your expertise.

A wise decision on your part.


--
Some people are like a Slinky. Not much good for anything, but you
can't help but smile when one tumbles down the stairs.

[Dustin]

~BD~ <~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in
news:YfudnQsJmvkNWlzRnZ2dnUVZ8kSdnZ2d@bt.com:

> FromTheRafters wrote:
>> "~BD~"<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
>> news:efadndwHp9EovlzRnZ2dnUVZ8lmdnZ2d@bt.com...
>>> FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>> "~BD~"<~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:XYmdnf0_ve0ozl3RnZ2dnUVZ7rqdnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>>> ~BD~ wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [....]
>>>>>
>>>>>> When I flashed the BIOS that one time, I used a floppy
>>>>>> disk/drive. Many
>>>>>> desktops/laptops nowadays don't have a floppy drive. How is
>>>>>> BIOS flashing carried out on such machines? TIA
>>>>>
>>>>> I've located the article to which I originally referred!
>>>>>
>>>>> Good information!
>>>>> http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1605
>>>>
>>>> "The BIOS is a set of instructions contained on special type of
>>>> volatile
>>>> memory chip built onto your motherboard."
>>>>
>>>> I think that that is wrong, this memory is non-volatile ROM
>>>> (that's the
>>>> whole point, no?). CMOS is volatile RAM. Later they state that
>>>> removing
>>>> the (CMOS) battery resets the BIOS (it resets the CMOS Setup
>>>> data, which
>>>> affects the BIOS program's execution, but it does *not* change
>>>> anything
>>>> in the BIOS program itself as it exists in the ROM) - that
>>>> *other* site
>>>> said something similarly wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Reading those articles, a novice would assume that a CMOS reset
>>>> actually
>>>> affects the BIOS program as it exists in ROM.
>>>>
>>>> The program in EEPROM will not change unless you "flash" it,
>>>> resetting
>>>> the CMOS does not "flash" the BIOS.
>>>
>>> All interesting information FTR. Thanks. I had absolutely no idea
>>> about this sort of thing until just a few years ago!
>>>
>>>
>>>> Do you know why they call it "flashing"?
>>>
>>>
>>> No - I do /not/ know why it's called 'flashing'.
>>>
>>> (Guessing - maybe high voltages were required 'once upon a time'?)
>>
>> Once upon a time...
>>
>> The "healing" or erasing needed to make it ready to accept new code
>> was done by ultra-violet light.
>>
>> [...]
>
> OK! Thanks for sharing!
>
> Substantiated here:
> http://vivekn.net/2010/06/07/flashin...i-motherboard/
>
> Quote
>
> "One more thing, the reason why the term ‘flashing the BIOS’ is used
> is because the BIOS is on an EEPROM (Electrically Erasable
> Programmable Read-Only Memory), and to erase its predecessor, EPROM
> (Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory) was erased by exposing it,
> or flashing, to ultra-violet light."
>

Damn.. I've had a good last few days and I have to come back to you
doing stupid ****, again. *we* already know this stuff; please stop
quoting/citing various articles.


--
Some people are like a Slinky. Not much good for anything, but you
can't help but smile when one tumbles down the stairs.

[~BD~]

Dustin asked:

[....] Have you even done one?


No. I've never removed and/or replaced a BIOS chip.

[~BD~]

Dustin wrote:
[....]
>
> Damn.. I've had a good last few days and I have to come back to you
> doing stupid ****, again. *we* already know this stuff; please stop
> quoting/citing various articles.

Well, I have no idea where you have been, but you sure have come back
grumpy! Surely discussing matters with others isn't stupid - is it?

More importantly, tell me some more about this mystical *we* to which
you refer. Friends, colleagues or what? Names would be good!

My understanding is that Usenet groups are freely available to anyone
who wishes to read and/or post to them. That's way over six billion
possible contributors. Some might like to verify the actual figure by
looking here:- http://math.berkeley.edu/~galen/popclk.html

[David H. Lipman]

From: "~BD~" <~BD~@nomail.afraid.org>

| Dustin wrote:
| [....]

>> Damn.. I've had a good last few days and I have to come back to you
>> doing stupid ****, again. *we* already know this stuff; please stop
>> quoting/citing various articles.

| Well, I have no idea where you have been, but you sure have come back
| grumpy! Surely discussing matters with others isn't stupid - is it?

| More importantly, tell me some more about this mystical *we* to which
| you refer. Friends, colleagues or what? Names would be good!

< snip >

"WE" !

--
Dave
Multi-AV Scanning Tool - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp

[Peter Foldes]

"~BD~" <~BD~@nomail.afraid.org> wrote in message
news:Iq2dnTG1_LgE0l7RnZ2dnUVZ8i6dnZ2d@bt.com...
> Dustin asked:
>
> [....] Have you even done one?
>
>
> No. I've never removed and/or replaced a BIOS chip.


When and if you do one or more then you can have a miniscule say about someone
else's expertise. Until then stop your friggin Trolling
And before you ask " Yes I have done many "

--
Peter
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